The current treatment for Wilson’s Disease is one chemical chelator, and zinc.
In wild controversy that made a Wilson’s Disease Associate resort to censoring my post, and blocking me, I suggest several natural chelators, and a few more minerals. Why not the full list, here: https://revealingfraud.com/2020/05/health/minerals-and-vitamins-im-actually-taking/
It is an interesting controversy I’m creating. Should Wilson’s disease patients take copper or not? I think so. I think the evidence is on the weight to take copper. I see no mechanism of action for how copper could cause nerve problems when copper actually restores the myelin sheath and increases neurotransmitters, and detoxes nerve poisons like fluoride that bind to copper. Taking clean copper would be the solution, not the problem. Also, Wilson’s disease is characterized by low serum copper and low cereloplasmin, both markers of copper deficiency. Copper is needed to fix both of those problems, and fluoride causes both of those problems, and copper detoxes fluoride.
Research challenge. Prove that copper is toxic. Not provide a reference where someone expresses that opinion. But prove that copper is toxic, with both reasons and evidence, to a level of proof say, “beyond a reasonable doubt”.
Here is another challenge for my friends who are good at research. Can you find a single example or case study of copper supplements causing Wilsons disease, or a person who had Wilsons disease who took copper supplements that then made it worse?
I could not find either example.
Today, I got another insight from my studies on copper and how it detoxes fluoride, and on how fluoride strips copper from pipes. See:
Wilson’s disease is said to be a disease of “high copper”. 1 in about 30,000 people have it. It’s said to be genetic. The solution is said to be a chelator and zinc, which should, in theory lower the copper. But the mystery is that this does not work very well.
I think I have solved this mystery. What if it’s not copper that is the problem? What if it’s copper in the water from copper pipes, and the copper from the pipes only leaches into the water when the water is loaded with fluoride? What if it’s not “high copper”, but high “copper fluoride” that is causing Wilson’s disease? If this is the case, then trying to “lower copper” is the exact wrong solution to the problem. The solution would be to provide clean copper, so the body can let go of the copper/fluoride. And the solution would be to provide other fluoride detoxifiers, such as iodine, boron, copper, calcium, phosphorous, etc.
Here is the far bigger problem. There is nobody in the world to tell this to.
Doctors, you can’t tell them, they are not interested. They want sick people.
I joined a Wilson’s disease online group, and they are not interested. They ban people for even proposing solutions. So, I post here, to my facebook page. Any suggestions?
Updated thought. If copper binds to fluoride, what other metal toxins does copper bind to? Is this why the standard methods ‘chelation’ and zinc, tend to work for Wilson’s, because chelation tends to remove toxic metals other than copper, along with copper?
All of the other problems listed in people with Wilson’s Disease here, appear to be signs of fluoride toxicity. Low bone density, endocrine problems, kidney problems, growth disorders, hypothyroidism (low iodine from high fluoride) liver problems, etc. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4192994/
Furthermore, Wilson’s is said to be a disease of “high copper”, but they have low copper in the blood. And copper coming out in the urine. This, to me, indicates that the body needs more copper, not less, and that the body is consuming what copper it does have, to detox fluoride. Several other indicators of high fluoride are in the description of the diagnosis of Wilson’s disease: Increased bleeding time, and low phosperous. I had just discovered last week that the molecule more stable than Copper (2) fluoride is one with a phosperous atom added. Wilson’s disease people are also low in cereloplasmin, which, to me, means they need molybdenum. Sure enough, they do use a chelator that has molybdenum in it to try to help eliminate the supposed “high copper”.
I messaged the WDA, Wilson Disease Association: Here is the dialog:
ME: I see that my post was deleted. Was there a reason that you allow posts, but deleted my posts?
WDA: We have the right to delete any posts that we deem necessary to delete.
ME: Well of course you do. It’s your page. I’m not an idiot. I asked you for the reason. The reason why I’m asking for a reason is that I’m wanting and trying to be helpful. And I’m looking for a discussion.
WDA: You don’t know anything about Wilson’s disease and what you posted is just wrong and bad information. We protect our patients
ME: How often do you test wilson’s disease patients for fluoride toxicity?
ME: Do you dispute that copper binds with fluoride?
Copper(II) fluoride – Wikipedia
Copper(II) fluoride is an inorganic compound with the chemical formula CuF2. It is a white crystalline, hygroscopic solid with a rutile-type crystal structure, similar to other fluorides of chemical formulae MF2 (where M is a metal).
ME: So, what specifically is wrong about my information?
ME: The fact that you appear incapable of responding intelligently indicates to me that you are toxic with fluoride yourself.
WDA: I do not have Wilson’s and I am not toxic with flouride
ME: Intelligent people are often capable of responding with what are called reasons. Not accusations. For your information.
ME: Great. Please respond with reasons. What specifically about my information is bad?
ME: Do you dispute that copper binds with fluoride?
ME: Do you dispute that the put fluoride in the national water supply?
WDA: It’s late and I am not going to argue
ME: Do you dispute the fluoride in the water binds with and leeches copper from the pipes?
ME: It is late. I’m excited by my discovery. I do not appreciate being treated badly by you today. That energizes me.
ME: You can try intelligent dialog tomorrow.
Right after I posted that, a dialog began on my facebook. I’ll share some of it:
Marianne Tysinger Collins In Wilson’s Disease, the liver does not produce enough ceruloplasmin or sometimes none at all. Ceruloplasmin binds with copper to remove excess from the body bit without it, there is an excess of free or non protein bound copper. This causes brain damage and liver damage. And yes serum bound copper is low, not high. Nothing to do with flouride. But yes sometimes we use drugs with molybdenum in it as it creates a loose binding with copper so that it isn’t as dangerous. Still it is not enough to prevent oxidative damage.
Jason Hommel Marianne Tysinger Collins Thank you so very much for your wonderfully intelligent reply. I found that molybdenum increases cereloplasmin. Also exercise increases it. And maybe vitamin A, but I was not yet able to confirm Vitamin A with a scientific study like the other two, exercise and moly. Most of the high copper studies I ran across study high copper in people, generally from water. That is from fluoride in the water stripping the copper from the pipes.
Jason Hommel Marianne Tysinger Collins Do you test for fluoride in people with Wilsons disease?
Marianne Tysinger Collins Jason Hommel no we do not
Jason Hommel Marianne Tysinger Collins Then how do you know that fluoride has nothing to do with it, as you say?
Marianne Tysinger Collins Jason Hommel “We are laughing”…
Jason Hommel Marianne Tysinger Collins It would be easy to prove me wrong. Prove that fluoride in the water does not pull copper from the pipes. Prove that fluoride does not attach to copper and would not follow copper into the liver, brain, and bones to cause fluoride damage. I pity you and your scorn for knowledge.
Marianne Tysinger Collins We did not have fluoridated water. I am not asking for pity.
Jason Hommel Marianne Tysinger Collins oh. A dialog. Fluoride is found in chicken dired fruits, grapes, teflon pans, goretex, dental floss, and fluoride treatments at the dentist. Fluoride is everywhere, even fresh cherries.
Jason Hommel Marianne Tysinger Collins fluoride in water is 0.7 ppm. Chicken feed is 135 ppm fluoride.
Note, there were 3 dialogs with Marianne going at once. She blocked me. So she might not have seen my last two comments.
Sally Berry The function of Asea is to normalize intracellular communication. Wilson’s is due to copper homeostasis dysfunction. Returning the cells to balance may be the answer, and that is what redox signaling molecules do. The FDA mandated disclaimer is: Asea does not diagnose, treat, remedy, or cure any medical condition. <- There the muzzle is in place.
Marianne Tysinger Collins Sally Berry we will stick to proven treatments. Wilson’s is ALWAYS fatal if not treated appropriately.
Sally Berry Marianne Tysinger Collins Homeostasis is a proven result of drinking redox signaling molecules. It does not discriminate and treat sliced and diced symptoms , it goes to where the imbalance is and normalizes the function on a system by system basis bar nothing. And of course to each his own.
Marianne Tysinger Collins Sally Berry yes I prefer to stick with information from scientists and doctors who specialize in this very rare liver disease.
Jason Hommel Marianne Tysinger Collins I would be more than happy to offer a free consult to any doctor or scientist you may know who specializes in Wilsons disease.
Jason Hommel The state of the world is so utterly biased against new information. Yet, the world bemoans that nobody has the solutions to major problems.
Marianne Tysinger Collins Jason Hommel there’s nothing wrong with new information but I will not change current proven treatments until new treatments have been investigated and trials been performed.
Jason Hommel Marianne Tysinger Collins . Trials are for criminals and toxic drugs. Copper iodine, etc. Are not toxic, and are available as supplements just like foods, and you do not need a prescription. Do you need a clinical trial before putting salt on eggs? Do you even know how utterly insane that sounds to rational people?
Jason Hommel Marianne Tysinger Collins Im not sure you understand the economics of what you think should happen. Clinical trials cost up to $100 million. Who would spend that so anyone could sell non patentable minerals to a few people with Wilsons, which could hurt sales of drugs to that very same group?
Jason Hommel Marianne Tysinger Collins was the moderator for the online facebook group: https://www.facebook.com/wilsondiseaseassociation. She blocked my post there, and she was likely the person who very half heartedly responded there, and finally came here when I posted the dialog exchange, up above. She ended up facebook blocking me last night.
My notes from this morning’s research: Copper deficient diets in rats lead to a situation found in Wilson’s Disease. Compare the following two statements:
The rats were raised in a copper-deficient diet and the vitamin A level was regularly determined. In these conditions serum and liver levels of vitamin A are normal and do not vary, ceruloplasmin level is zero; however apoceruloplasmin is still being synthetized https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/533078
In Wilson’s from the wiki on Wilson’s:CeruloplasminLevels of ceruloplasmin are abnormally low (<0.2 g/L) in 80–95% of cases.
“Both functions of ATP7B are impaired in Wilson’s disease. Copper accumulates in the liver tissue; ceruloplasmin is still secreted, but in a form that lacks copper (termed apoceruloplasmin) and is rapidly degraded in the bloodstream.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilson%27s_disease
Furthermore, the wiki confirms Wilson’s patients are low in copper:
Serum and urine copper Serum copper is low, which may seem paradoxical given that Wilson’s disease is a disease of copper excess. However, 95% of plasma copper is carried by ceruloplasmin which is often low in Wilson’s disease.
Furthermore, Wilson’s patients can’t have a “problem” of not excreting copper, because they excrete an excess:
Urine copper is elevated in Wilson’s disease and is collected for 24 hours in a bottle with a copper-free liner. Levels above 100 μg/24h (1.6 μmol/24h) confirm Wilson’s disease, and levels above 40 μg/24h (0.6 μmol/24h) are strongly indicative. High urine copper levels are not unique to Wilson’s disease; they are sometimes observed in autoimmune hepatitis and in cholestasis (any disease obstructing the flow of bile from the liver to the small bowel).
If Wilson’s patients excrete an excess of copper, then how can it be said to “build up” or be a problem of excess?
They are said to have an excess copper in the liver.
Biopsies “confirm”, but not always? If there is not always excess copper in their livers, then how can excess copper be a causal mechanism of action, that makes no sense.
From wiki: “A level of 250 μg of copper per gram of dried liver tissue confirms Wilson’s disease.”
And what are normal copper levels?
“A normal hepatic copper concentration (<50 μg/g) almost always excludes a diagnosis of Wilson’s disease.”
So, the copper excess said to cause all of these problems is 500% greater!
From the wiki again: “A level of 250 μg of copper per gram of dried liver tissue confirms Wilson’s disease. Occasionally, lower levels of copper are found; in that case, the combination of the biopsy findings with all other tests could still lead to a formal diagnosis of Wilson’s.”
I don’t understand how the disease can be genetic from birth, but problems don’t show up until people reach age 20-40. That makes no sense.
COPPER DEFICIENCY IN WILSON’S DISEASE
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0140673689906120 article unavailable to the public.
Serum copper normal range: “a range for normal copper status include serum copper (normal range 0.64-1.56 ug/ml)”
This is a variability of up to nearly 243% from low to high! 1.56/.64 = 2.43.
A 243% variability of copper in the serum is normal.
What is low Wilson’s copper serum level?
Found it: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3940372/For a Wilson’s diagnosis:Serum ceruloplasmin Normal (>0.2 g/L) 0 0.1–0.2 g/L 1 <0.1 g/L 2A similar article copying much of the prior article: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5673017/
“Serum and urine copperSerum copper is low, which may seem paradoxical given that Wilson’s disease is a disease of copper excess.”
Wow. The liver uses copper to make cereloplasmin!
“Thus the liver utilizes some copper for its metabolic needs, including synthesis and secretion of ceruloplasmin (a copper containing protein) which is also involved in iron metabolism”
How can copper cause nerve damage or brain damage when copper heals the nerves in several ways: restores the myelin sheath, and increases neurotransmitters.
How can copper cause bone problems, when copper heals the bones in several ways; helps the body make stronger bones, and helps the body convert iron into blood cells in the marrow?
It appears as if these problems are more explained by copper deficiency rather than copper excess.
If Wilson’s patients have a problem of excess copper excretion in the urine, why are they given a chemical chelating agent, Penicillamine, which increases copper excretion in the urine by up to ten times greater values? That is so obviously wrong, and is actually reported as making people worse off, and causes symptoms of copper deficiency, such as lack of collagen formation.
Current therapy for Wilson’s is chemical chelators and one mineral.
Why would natural chelators and many natural minerals be considered worse or crazy or insane, instead of the more rational approach?
Natural chelators: greens, distilled water, coffee, and many minerals are actually copper chelators, specifically, not only zinc, but also, iodine, sulfur, and many others.
Natural minerals: iodine, sulfur, zinc, moybdenum, etc.
The following list of things I have found lower copper:
having high iron
drinking distilled water
Curcumin binds copper:
How would copper even harm the liver in the first place?
“Copper may damage liver cells and other cells in the body by causing the formation of activated chemical intermediates.”
That is exactly what I’m saying. Copper binds to fluoride, a toxin. What other toxins might bind to copper?
If the body is loaded with toxins, and if the body’s available copper is being used to bind those toxins, then the answer is more copper, or other minerals that can detox the body, to flush out and chelate those toxins.
But what is running counter to my theory is the Kayser-Fleischer rings, copper rings in the eyes. Might that be toxin bound copper? Unknown.
I found another writer, as of 8-18-20, saying the same thing:
“Wilson’s Disease, the so-called “copper overload” disease which is in fact caused by copper deficiency”
I have found this same phenomenon, where they blame the mineral for causing what the lack of the mineral does: they claim liver disease is a problem of “high copper”, but historically, it’s low copper. And what is the main problem with Wilson’s disease? Liver disease. The treatment for Wilson’s is avoiding copper, and taking copper chelators and zinc. How could those work, if they make copper deficiency worse? Copper is a detoxer. Chelators also detox.
Other examples. Iodine. They now blame high iodine for causing goiter, but iodine cures goiter. They blame iodine for causing both kinds of other thyroid problems, hypo and hyper, but iodine cures both.