Breaking the Rules for Vitamin C and Zinc on Copper

One of the Big Ideas behind The Copper Revolution is to Question the Rules and to Violate the Rules.

The rule was “10 mg of copper is the tolerable upper human limit”. We have now discovered and proved that this is not true. Many of us benefit more from taking 30 mg a day of copper, plus 70 mg of topical copper!

The rule was very wrong.

People on our Facebook Group, and “the research” in the Copper Revolution book, have inadvertently pushed me into making more rules. These rules might similarly be just as wrong, and I will examine two of them, regarding Vitamin C and Zinc.

Copper and Vitamin C

The research says that 1500 mg of Vitamin C lowers ceruloplasmin, which is a copper transport protein. It is assumed that ceruloplasmin is good, and thus, lowering it is bad. These might be bad assumptions, for the following reasons.

  1. Albumin also transports copper. Metallothioneins also transport copper. So do a lot of copper containing proteins and enzymes, there is not just ceruloplasmin.
  2. Copper can be transported in the blood without albumin, and without ceruloplasmin.
  3. “The Average Person” has 90% of copper bound in ceruloplasmin; however, the average person is also copper deficient, as 80% of people do not even get 0.6 mg, or less, of copper per day, and there is no reason why we want to be average or look average, or let our goals be dictated by what “average” looks like.
  4. If Vitamin C lowers copper (and it might or might not) then if the body lets ceruloplasmin go down in response to extra Vitamin C might be a good thing as a way to let the body help prevent copper losses in case there is extra vitamin C. We just do not know enough.
  5. Ceruloplasmin is also high in people with arthritis. High ceruloplasmin is therefore not necessarily an indication of “good health”. Numerous toxins are associated with causing arthritis; mercury, aluminum, lead, etc.
  6. Ceruloplasmin might do far more than merely “transport copper”. It is also a powerful detoxing agent, and the body might create more of it in response to exposure to toxins.
  7. As indicated in my book, upon exposure to mercury, the body will transport copper (presumably by ceruloplasmin, and/or other means) to the kidney to help to detox the mercury that ends up in the kidney. In other words, this is evidence that ceruloplasmin might rise in response to exposure to toxins.
  8. Vitamin A causes a rise in Ceruloplasmin. Vitamin A might not have any role in helping to produce or make ceruloplasmin, it might induce the body to make ceruloplasmin as a way to help mobilize the copper to help repair the body from the damage from excess Vitamin A. We really just do not know.
  9. Vitamin A deficiency also causes a rise in ceruloplasmin: There is a lot unknown.

Plus, there is a lot of synergy between Vitamin C and copper, as follows:

Both are needed to make collagen.
Both are powerful detox agents, both detox a wide variety of toxins and poisons.
Both are said to boost immunity.
Both are antioxidants, and/or copper helps to create powerful antioxidant enzymes.
Both help stop bleeding.
Both are good for infections.
Both are good for wound healing.
Both are good for healing anemia.
Both are good for heart disease, cancer, and arthritis.
Both reduce inflammation.
Both lower blood pressure.
Both reduce gout.

The “rule” that 1500 mg of Vitamin C lowers ceruloplasmin might only apply to people who do not supplement with copper. There is no evidence that they tested 1500 mg Vitamin C with people who take a whopping 30 mg of copper through copper sulfate. Copper alone boosts ceruloplasmin.

If a high level of Vitamin C harmed levels of copper at high levels of copper intake, we, who know that taking high levels of copper is safe, should be the most capable people on the planet to be able to deal with the “potentially copper lowering” side effects of Vitamin C. Because we can just take copper.

The number of people who have experimented with taking high levels of copper, say, above 30 mg, is mostly limited to our group. And the number of us who have experimented with simultaneously taking 30 grams of Vitamin C might be limited to only one member who posted yesterday. There is a lot we do not know. And we should thus test, and experiment how we feel on various levels of Vitamin C, to find out what is ideal, and not let ourselves be bullied by potentially bad interpretations of studies that warn of “ceruloplasmin-lowering” effects, which, for all we know, might be both good, and might not even apply to us.

Copper and Zinc

So the “rule” here is that too much zinc will lower copper, as zinc makes metallothionein, which can excrete copper. However, metallothionein is also described as a copper transport protein, and a copper storage protein. For all we know, more metallothionein may help us RETAIN more copper, so it’s not always negative.

In fact, my book describes a curve of zinc and copper; low zinc and copper is poorly absorbed. Medium zinc, at about 13 mg, and copper is better absorbed. Higher zinc, and copper is poorly absorbed. But this is only with 1.3 mg of copper.

We have no idea what the copper absorption curve for zinc looks like at 30 mg of copper!!! Maybe we need 10 times more zinc than copper? Does this imply 300 mg zinc? Or maybe is 100 mg ideal? Or is 50 mg too much? This has never been tested!

Or does too much zinc lower selenium more than copper? We do not know.

In fact, metallothionein has good uses, as it is also used to detox mercury, lead, and arsenic.

So, the assumption that “zinc makes metallothionein” and “metallothionein is bad” is a wrong assumption, and should be rejected.

But, from the potential of metallothionein to lower copper, I began to become very cautious about zinc, and I needed to test out what it was like to be taking lower zinc for the purpose of helping to increase copper. For the book.

Since the publication of the book, and since trying as little as 10 mg of zinc with my 100 mg of copper, I quickly found out, within about a month, that was too little zinc. I increased the zinc to 25 mg, which appeared about right. Since then, allergies kicked in, and I increased the zinc for a few days to the 75 to 100 mg level. And that worked, and I might have taken too little. But now I’m great, no more runny nose. And I have since dropped back to 50 mg zinc. Yesterday, I also learned the dry skin on my hands suddenly fully healed, and I was no longer absorbing blue copper sulfate into the cracks in my hands! Go zinc go! Yay!

More on zinc/coper ratios:

Turns out, dry skin is a low zinc sign. And a sign of Vitamin A toxicity. And zinc helps make Retinol Binding Protein, so it all lines up.

Or did my hands heal from the B vitamins I started up again? Darn, another variable! Either way, I like being healthier as a side effect!!!

I am learning! In the long run, too much copper may overpower the zinc. In the long run, too much zinc may overpower copper. I’m sure there are other factors at play that can strengthen the role of each, which could change the ideal ratio.

Economics teaches us that price-fixing a silver to gold ratio never works. The market’s ratio will always change, and the mint will always lose one metal and accumulate the other as the changing market dictates. Our bodies are like the changing market, our bodies have different needs over time. It is we who must adjust to the needs of the body.

Even if we could guess an exactly good ratio of zinc to copper, it will change over time.

If we take more copper absorbers/retainers, zinc may be overpowered first. And if we take more things that block copper, the copper could go lower first.

I also stopped eating as much Vitamin A. What if my body used up a bunch of zinc to help detox my Vitamin A a bit, since I was no longer burdened with the excess Vitamin A, and it all manifested as allergies for a few days? Who knows these things?

We have to all be willing to experiment. To play. To adapt. To adjust. To “violate” the rules. And always question the rules and question assumptions.